"Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by Pepper » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:20 am

Aquila K9 wrote:I have been finding lately that people making public games will now just kick you right out of the game as soon as you enter. Since it's the first time entering the game, I can only assume they are doing it to save spots...that being said, I'd rather have someone ask me nicely to leave instead of being kicked for no reason. And you can't report the game after you're kicked because you can't find it again. :evil: That is just the epitome of rude.
Sadly, some people are using the "kick" function to save spots. There isn't anything we can do except ask WQ community members to follow the rules and set up private games if they want to be selective about who plays.
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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by Rustic » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:47 am

Saving spots in public games is against the rules -- that's what private games are for. Please use the in-game reporting function (in Pack Stats) if someone asks you to leave because they are saving spots.


That is now impossible in all scenarios due to Wolfquest's 'brilliant' move on making so that when kicked out of a game you are now unable to see and rejoin said game. So people don't even NEED to tell you that you are saving spots. They will instead just automatically kick you out as soon as you log in. So you KNOW that this is to save spots for someone else but can't do a darned t hing about it!! Way to go wolfquest you have now given people the power to save spots and annoy others merely trying to have a fun time in a public game. At least allow the same game to be SEEN even if you can't rejoin it...that way it can still be reported.

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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by Kamaal » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:59 am

Rustic wrote:
Saving spots in public games is against the rules -- that's what private games are for. Please use the in-game reporting function (in Pack Stats) if someone asks you to leave because they are saving spots.


That is now impossible in all scenarios due to Wolfquest's 'brilliant' move on making so that when kicked out of a game you are now unable to see and rejoin said game. So people don't even NEED to tell you that you are saving spots. They will instead just automatically kick you out as soon as you log in. So you KNOW that this is to save spots for someone else but can't do a darned t hing about it!! Way to go wolfquest you have now given people the power to save spots and annoy others merely trying to have a fun time in a public game. At least allow the same game to be SEEN even if you can't rejoin it...that way it can still be reported.

I agree there with Rustic. After the patch that disabled you from joining a said game after being kicked out for no particular reason you can do nothing. Even if the player(s) were breaking the rules they'd be free to do as they please since you or anyone else who got kicked would be unable to report them. Personally I find it quite frustrating - I have stopped entering public servers due to this very reason, the community in-game has become very caustic. I just don't understand the true function of this addition - sure I mean it may be useful when trying to get rid of trolls, but it's also a way to get away with a ban/warning. With that in mind you are unable to report any inappropriate activity (which has surprisingly increased since the lunch of this particular patch) to the admins.
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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by -Amsel- » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:48 am

Well, it seems that the WQ team is darned if they do, and darned if they don't. Some people threw a fit when you could rejoin games after being kicked, and now some people are throwing a fit that they can't. I guess that's the problem with having such a big community -- Not everyone's going to agree with one thing.

Personally, I think that the kick option should be removed all together. It's just causing too many problems to be worth it. If a person's not breaking the rules, why should they be kicked out of an OPEN GAME, anyway? That's just as bad as saving spots! Plus, I bet some rule-breakers aren't getting reported because, instead of reporting them, people are kicking them instead!

Anyway, back on topic, I really don't see why there is an "opinion" to be discussed here. Saving spots is against the rules, and that is that. It should be reported, just like any other broken rule (except, now it can't be reported if said rule-breaker kicks you. . .).

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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by Rustic » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:05 pm

Personally, I think that the kick option should be removed all together. It's just causing too many problems to be worth it. If a person's not breaking the rules, why should they be kicked out of an OPEN GAME, anyway?


Amsel DOES have a point here.

I will propose a possible compromise, allow the kicked person to be able to still SEE, even if they can't rejoin the game they were kicked from (have that option greyed out) That way the ones that feel people are trolling can still kick and not have people return to that game but at the same time the ones being inappropriately banned from an open game still have a way of reporting the game as you CAN report a game just from the load screen.

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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by Pepper » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:05 pm

We appreciate all your input about the kicking functionality and we are considering ways to improve it. The trick is finding a system that is a good balance of giving players the ability to manage their games while still being accountable for their own behavior.

We know that being allowed to return to games after kicking made some players act obnoxiously. And now, kicking permanently allows some players to act obnoxiously by kicking players to save spots or just "because." However, simply being able to see and report a game from which you were kicked won't work... since then we would then get reports "I got kicked from [game name] unfairly" with no record what actually happened. We would then enter into the tangled web of "he said/she said." My head hurts just thinking about that.

There is also the matter of limited time and resources. The more time we have to spend on abuse reports and reporting systems, the less time we have for the fun stuff. But we understand that the current situation has problems and we're trying to figure out how to improve it.
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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by Rustic » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:37 pm

However, simply being able to see and report a game from which you were kicked won't work... since then we would then get reports "I got kicked from [game name] unfairly" with no record what actually happened. We would then enter into the tangled web of "he said/she said." My head hurts just thinking about that.
Hmmm I see your point....and it is a good one. What about, and I recall having made a thread about it somewhere, your output log? The old 2.5 game would save a record of everything that was said during a game. In this way if someone used the report feature after being kicked, the output log could potentially back up what they are saying...I say COULD because with 2.5 I am of course speaking only of a computer game....with the current game also being available on tablet and mobile phones....even if the old output log was resurrected I don't know if it could even be retrieved from these other devices.

As for spending money on fixing these issues, verses new and other fun stuff....I have to admit (and this coming from someone who HAS on several occasions, been unfairly kicked...I would personally rather see new and other fun stuff added to the game.

As it is with all the issues, I have not played multiplayer for some time now. Other than the random private game I've arranged with my 6 year old niece to actually teach her the game and play with her. As of late I have found this to be much more fun and satisfying than any open game hosted by the current crowd frequenting wolfquest.

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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by -Amsel- » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:46 pm

Pepper wrote: giving players the ability to manage their games...
I really don't even know why this is a problem that needs to be figured out at all. Public games are just that: Public. In the past, if a person joined a game and you didn't like them (but they weren't breaking the rules), too bad for you! You knew you were taking that risk when you opened a public game. It's like putting up posters saying that you're having a birthday party that's open to the whole town, but when someone you don't know walks in the door you yell: "PRIVATE PARTY!" And kick them out the door, locking it behind you! Not to sound like a little kid, but, that's not fair at all! It even says in the rules for multiplayer games that allowing only specific people in open games is not allowed. So, unless the rules have changed since the last time I've looked, the kick option is actually breaking that rule (or at least bending it quite a bit).

Just putting that out there.

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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by valkea » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:59 pm

-Amsel- wrote:
Pepper wrote: giving players the ability to manage their games...
I really don't even know why this is a problem that needs to be figured out at all. Public games are just that: Public. In the past, if a person joined a game and you didn't like them (but they weren't breaking the rules), too bad for you! You knew you were taking that risk when you opened a public game. It's like putting up posters saying that you're having a birthday party that's open to the whole town, but when someone you don't know walks in the door you yell: "PRIVATE PARTY!" And kick them out the door, locking it behind you! Not to sound like a little kid, but, that's not fair at all! It even says in the rules for multiplayer games that allowing only specific people in open games is not allowed. So, unless the rules have changed since the last time I've looked, the kick option is actually breaking that rule (or at least bending it quite a bit).

Just putting that out there.
The thing with this though is that the kick option is not meant to be for saving spots, or kicking people out who you don't like. It is for removing players from a game who are being rude, rule-breaking, or otherwise disruptive. That is when there is reason to kick someone from the game. If you just don't like someone, or don't know them? That's not reason to kick them. The option was not implemented with the intent of it being like a "public" birthday party that's actually private. It was to allow players to better handle bad behavior. When people abuse the option to kick people from games for no reason other than "saving spots", instead of using it for its intended purpose, then it does become a problem that needs to be figured out.

Yes, public games are public and anyone can join them, and people need to understand that. However, they shouldn't have to just sit there and deal with toxic behavior or rule-breaking in their games.
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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by -Amsel- » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:41 pm

Yes, I agree with you completely. I know that I was intended to be used for kicking rule-breakers out of games, but it turned into something else (like you said). To me, it seems like it's causing more trouble than it's worth. Before 2.7, people dealt with it by reporting the rule-breaker and restarting the server and hoping the rule-breaker didn't return. I doubt many people sat in the game and just listened the rude player/rule-breaker.

Also, maybe there should be a separate topic for this? discussion seems to be straying away from the topic's original purpose....

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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by Aquila K9 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:34 pm

Pepper wrote: There is also the matter of limited time and resources. The more time we have to spend on abuse reports and reporting systems, the less time we have for the fun stuff. But we understand that the current situation has problems and we're trying to figure out how to improve it.
I have seen how other games deal with rule breaking and it made me wonder about some things. I understand the limited time and resources is a big factor, and not even sure if this can be done with the game or even if this is already a feature, but I was thinking about the warning button. Not too many people I have notice use it as much as the kick, (why warn when you want to person gone I guess?) but the player gets an instant message in the game. The in game feature I noticed also has a report button for each player if you click on their name. I have never reported anyone so I'm not sure how that works...Does a popup notification appear when you report a player? Where does the report go and does it let you give any details? Just a notification might detour most obnoxious behavior/rule breaking,but then is the rulebreaking reported on the website somewhere? Or it gets sent to an email? Then the "serious" reporters can provide detailed information, perhaps a screenshot or anything to show the rule breaking, and the moderators can review it. This might also prevent anyone false reporting just for the sake of reporting.

Anyway, It's just some questions and thoughts...
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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by valkea » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:44 pm

perhaps a screenshot or anything to show the rule breaking, and the moderators can review it.
Quickly pointing out that us moderators actually have nothing to do with in-game moderation - we are forum moderators only and cannot take action against people inside the game itself, have no special powers in multiplayer, and do not see multiplayer reports at all unless it's something particularly strange-looking that we might know something about (or if someone sends their reports to us via PM, but they're not supposed to do that anyway because we can't actually deal with those reports). And even if we could, I don't think it'd actually help solve the problem of people abusing features to save spots. It'd just make more people have to deal with it... which yes, could be beneficial since the workload is more spread out, but we'd still be here trying to figure out this problem.
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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by Aquila K9 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:02 pm

Kirave wrote:
perhaps a screenshot or anything to show the rule breaking, and the moderators can review it.
Quickly pointing out that us moderators actually have nothing to do with in-game moderation - we are forum moderators only and cannot take action against people inside the game itself, have no special powers in multiplayer, and do not see multiplayer reports at all unless it's something particularly strange-looking that we might know something about (or if someone sends their reports to us via PM, but they're not supposed to do that anyway because we can't actually deal with those reports). And even if we could, I don't think it'd actually help solve the problem of people abusing features to save spots. It'd just make more people have to deal with it... which yes, could be beneficial since the workload is more spread out, but we'd still be here trying to figure out this problem.
Ah I see, thanks for pointing that out Kirave. I'm really not familiar with these things. Are there not moderators for the game? I thought there were people that occasionally checked the games or entered games to see if rules were being broken? Or maybe I heard that from somewhere... :oops: When people report players/games where do these reports go? Just curious.
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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by valkea » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:14 pm

You may be thinking of the old WolfQuest Report Team we had back during 2.5's time. The Report Team weren't all (forum) moderators though (some were, but also a fair amount of non-staff users were in it), and being in the Report Team didn't mean that they actually moderated the games. Moderators also used to have the expectation of doing the same thing the Report Team did if they were able, but that hasn't been something we've been expected to do for a very long time. Looking back, the last mention of that being an expectation in mod application announcements was in 2011, which happened to be the same year the Report Team was created.

As far as I know, there are no game-specific moderators and that the report button sends an email to Dave, however since I am not involved in that process at all, Dave or Pepper would probably be able to give you a better answer.
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Re: "Saving Spots" - Your opinion?

Post by loboLoco » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:06 am

Pepper handles the in-game reports. We didn't think that we needed to revive the Report Team since we now have in-game reporting, as well as the warning and kicking system. We've tried to put everything in place to let players deal with issues and conflicts in a game, but we can't force good behavior on players who are keen on being obnoxious. But we do now have a plan for this problem with players who kick other players excessively. It'll be a few weeks before we get it working for the next patch.
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